Paul mentioned a post he read by Michael Jamieson claiming that we are already perfect; his partner disagreed. So, which is it?
Christian: the learning versus perfection discussion is a big one. The masters say we are already perfect, so stop searching and find perfection in the here and now. Yet, our mind convinced us that we are wiser today than 10 years ago and implicitly hope that we will be “enlightened” ten years hence.
Paul: at the back of his idea is the insight that we are not human beings having spiritual experiences, we are spiritual beings having human experiences.
Christian: I put out a post the other day where I complimented Alan Watts and Osho for having been more enlightened than I ever could, yet, towards the end of their lives Alan was more or less an alcoholic and Osho did strange things in his community in Oregon. Someone I respect replied that I am still thinking with the morality of a human whereas Alan knew he was God impersonated and he expressed himself the way he liked. I was puzzled by that response.
Paul: Courtney Walsh had that amazing note on unconditional love that encapsulates this discussion. We come from unconditional love; we have to explore how we—imperfectly—can express it here. (I added her note at the end of the discussion if you haven’t read it.)
Julie: the word we are looking for her is “remembering”. We are never separated from this unconditional love all we have to do is to remember. Maybe these masters also forget from time to time. We are all real life humans.
Paul: I enjoy the meditations Michael sends out. They help me to remember. We sometimes forget our divine nature when the realities of life hit.
Michael: This discussion correlates well with Ramana Maharshi’s teachings not to focus on the ego part but looking at our real nature. Ramana says that even our sacred notion of soul is ego. Maybe that’s why reincarnation happens and only when we realize Self, that’s when we stop being reborn.
Christian: all those entities, ego, soul, they are all not real according to Ramana, only the Self is. I always picture soul as a GPS that guides us through the lifetimes, allowing us to have all these human experiences and learning to let go of them. Yet, in all this the link to what lies beyond remains and we oscillate around it. Yet, as you say, the journey never stops until we put our foot down and say, “enough is enough—perfection is here now!” Maybe even the soul is a concept. Maybe none of this stuff is real, only the here and now is.
John: We get lost in words. We try to relate this word to our inner understanding. We understand soul as a gateway to the absolute. But it’s only a word. We can’t say “there it is”. Just like with the word Self. Unconditional love—can we truly imagine what it is? We can’t! Acceptance of everything is impossible for the mind. In NDE a vast majority of people described they were engulfed in unconditional love. We are influenced by what other people have said, we hang onto our beliefs, but we are not getting even close to the reality of “It”. What stands between “That” and our perceived reality is this thing called ego. Ego is everything that is constructed by our body and our psyche to want, to have. The ego is a construct around that thing that we imagine as soul or Self. Even this soul or Self is a temporary manifestation around a divine spark that is timeless and infinite. This spark makes contact with our human experience. My question to you all, does it feel true that you are perfect?
Christian: didn’t you give your own answer in a way with the descriptions of the NDE? There are these moments that are perfect. We all had these satori moments when we experienced unconditional love. Naturally, these moments come and go but the power of now is available for everyone ready to rush to our side whenever we are. These moments are not addictive. We drift in and out but at these moments are perfect.
Paul: Words, concepts, stories describe these indescribable, ineffable things. David used to talk about the amazing power of a sunset, and you are blown away, but then the words come like, “look at these colors”, “this is the best view ever”, it’s already over. I don’t try to remember anymore how supposedly perfect I am, I am just enjoying the human experience.
John: In Ramana Maharshi’s teachings Self and God are used interchangeably. Modern teachers have gone so far to say that there is a temporary experience of the eternal. That gets you to the strange idea that once you have found this emptiness inside you are Self. That’s a huge misunderstanding! Ramana Maharshi saw his self dying to the Self. This experience was permanent—no return to the ego self. He was the embodiment of selflessness. This event is extremely rare. Osho had a brilliant mind, but his ego hadn’t died, and that’s why he and Alan exhibited those behaviors.
Christian: So, what is our take-away? Should we start a school of enlightenment? Should we aspire to become like Ramana, or at least advance to his level in a lifetime or two?
John: Everything we have talked about thus far has been conceptional. We don’t know anything about the divine spark. We are on a journey towards Home, unconditional love. Somehow deep inside it encourages us to bring us to meeting like this one or meditate. We have to learn to remove the interference. What stands between where we are now and where we yearn to be? We have to figure out in our own inner reality what is in the way? Why despite 40 years of meditation and spiritual practice can’t we reach “That”! Why do I have any temporary spiritual experiences? We can work on ourselves. Change direction from self actualization they have to realize that the self is in the Way.
Michael: in my conversation with the Ramana Maharshi scholar Michael James we concluded that there is not much to learn but there is a lot to unlearn. All this intellectualizing is getting in the way. Ramana’s teachings have been translated in different ways, and everyone has different interpretations of what it actually means. The problem is bondage. I realized how much I put myself in bondage. Everything that I learned growing up, most of it puts me into a prison. I run after what I feel gives me pleasure and run away from what I perceive gives me pain. That’s the bondage. Actually, everything is just fine but, in my head, I am creating all this crap. At the frisbee event I go in with expectations, it never works out, but when I am going with the flow, everything is perfect.
John: When you get your self out of the Way, magic happens. In that flow state there is a joy, a sense of truth.
Michael: The flow-state is surrendering.
John: Get the individual self out of the Way. You found your way and we can all resonate. We all had these satori moment. We can’t strive for perfection, for striving is ego. Find out what’s in the way. Let go of what is in the Way. Diminish the selfishness.
Michael: Someone asked Rupert Spira a question, asking him why he always feels so happy being in the flow-state of writing, and Rupert answered that what he truly enjoys is having this temporary experience of stepping out of self.
John: The ego always returns. The whole damn thing is a journey. We work on ourselves as best as we can. Striving is a problem. The only thing we can do is to be mindful of self and get it out of the Way.
Paul: I am in the habit of just saying “Thank You!” When I have these satory moments. That way I open myself up to receive more of them. We all have our own path.
Michael: I get upset these days when I meet people who don’t get how important Ramana is. I guess that’s ego talking as well. We are all remembering, unlearning, at our own pace.
Tony: I am getting involved with a not-for-profit called The Wonder Academy in Chicago. Three young women want to start a school to un-institutionalize education. We have to unlearn what we learn in school. They take ages 4-9 right now. When we go to school the first thing we learn is to obey. It’s messing them up. We can’t start young enough to avoid the trap of conditioning. They let these young children learn for themselves.
Christian: J. Krishnamurti started a similar school in Brockwood Park, UK that is still in operation.
Michael: Julie mentioned “remembering”. The importance hit me when I read Michael Newton’s Journey of Souls. This is a hypnotherapist that as able to bring people back into past lives, and it correlated really nicely with the NDEs John talked about. He was able to flesh out going from death to birth. He had over 7000 patients.
Thank you all for a great discussion. If you like to join our Spiritual Roundtable please reach out.
Appendix: Courtney A. Walsh: Dear Human
Dear Human:
You've got it all wrong.
You didn't come here to master unconditional love. This is where you came from and where you'll return.
You came here to learn personal love.
Universal love.
Messy love.
Sweaty Love.
Crazy love.
Broken love.
Whole love.
Infused with divinity.
Lived through the grace of stumbling.
Demonstrated through the beauty of... messing up.
Often.
You didn't come here to be perfect, you already are.
You came here to be gorgeously human. Flawed and fabulous.
And rising again into remembering.
But unconditional love? Stop telling that story.
Love in truth doesn't need any adjectives.
It doesn't require modifiers.
It doesn't require the condition of perfection.
It only asks you to show up.
And do your best.
That you stay present and feel fully.
That you shine and fly and laugh and cry and hurt and heal and fall and get back up and play and work and live and die as YOU.
Its enough.
It's Plenty.”
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